On 11/18/2012 4:48 PM, 'DJ' wrote:

From: Ex Mo Bro
Sent: November 20, 2012 3:18 PM
To: 'DJ'
Subject: Re: I used to be a Mormon - your article

 
Hello DJ.

I'm glad that you wrote to me. I believe that it is never by coincidence, but by God's arrangement, that we have connected this way.

You say that it was against your better judgement that you read part of what I wrote. You may well feel that way, but I believe that God wanted you to read them.

You ask me a very pointed question: "Why do you feel compelled to lie?" I don't intend you any disrespect, but it reminds me of the question "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

DJ, I'm going to assume that your question is sincere, and that you not only believe that I lied in what I wrote, but that since you actually went to the trouble to ask me the question, that you want me to answer it. I'll give you the best and most honest answer that I can.

First, I'll state here that were I in your position (as I once was), I would also have believed (as I once did) that people who say anything against the Mormon religion are just plain lying. As a Mormon, I did in fact read literature that was written by ex Mormons, and instead of honestly investigating their claims, as I ought to have done, I blew them all off as 'anti Mormons'. I assumed that they all just had an ax to grind against 'the Church', and that their goal in life was to 'persecute the saints'. Why? Because I unquestioningly swallowed what I was told by my church leaders, rather than having the courage to think for myself.

When I was a Mormon, I was not aware of the Mormon leadership's statement that when the leaders speak "The thinking has been done,' (Joseph Fielding Smith, in the June 1945 issue of the Improvement Era), but I pretty much lived by it.

For the record, DJ, I do not have an ax to grind against Mormons; let that much be clear. While you undoubtedly do not see things from my perspective, I actually love Mormons, and I want to see them liberated from the deception that they are under. I will proceed with you with that understanding, as I answer your very pointed question about lying.

So, let me start by telling you straight out - DJ, I did not lie about what I experienced in the Mormon temple. And because you ask me that question, I will assume that you are likely in one of two or three groups:

You are either a Mormon who has NEVER participated in the temple endowment ceremony, and are blindly believing what you have been told about it from your priesthood leaders

You have been to the Mormon temple, but only after the ceremony was changed in 1990, and are unaware of how things were done before 1990, and have (again) blindly trusted your leaders, who have probably told you that the way the temple rituals are currently done is how they have ALWAYS been done. I'm guessing that you are likely in this category.

Or you are a Mormon who has in fact participated in the temple ceremony prior to 1990 (as I once was), and for some reason YOU feel compelled to lie about the very things which we BOTH KNOW happened there. My guess is that you aren't in this category, as it is not likely that you would have gone to the trouble to write to me if you were.

On that basis, I'll tell you that YES DJ, every word that I said in my testimony is TRUE. I did NOT lie about any of it.

Here is a word for word comparison of the temple ceremony, where the red text shows what was deleted after 1990. The blue italicized text shows what was used to replace it.

And I will have you know, DJ, that before my day, the temple ceremony had been changed from an even more brutal blood oath, which was much closer to the way the Masons recited it. Fortunately, I was not a Mormon in those days.

Previously, the oath went like this:

From: http://utlm.org/newsletters/no76.htm

"'We, and each of us, covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so, we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by their roots.'...

    "In executing the sign of the penalty, the right hand palm down, is drawn sharply across the throat, then dropped from the square to the side."

Here is a fuller account from http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2818926/posts

Death Oaths Made by All Mormon Temple Patrons Prior to the 1930's:

ADAM : "We, and each of us, covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so, we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by their roots."

ADAM: "All bow your heads and say Yes."

TEMPLE PATRONS: "Yes." (All patrons sit down.)

PETER: "The brethren and sisters will now stand, push back the seats, place the robe on the left shoulder, and receive the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood. We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal the secrets of this, the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, grip or penalty. Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

"All bow your heads and say yes."

TEMPLE PATRONS: "Yes." (All patrons sit down.)

PETER: "We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so, we agree that our bodies be cut asunder in the midst and all our bowels gush out."

"All bow your heads and say yes."

TEMPLE PATRONS: "Yes." (All patrons sit down.)

 

From http://www.mormondoctrine.net/temple/endowment/compare_1984_to_1990.htm

 

ELOHIM: We will now give unto you the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood with its accompanying name, and sign, and penalty. Before doing this, however, we desire to impress upon your minds the sacred character of the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name and sign, and penalty, as well as that of all the other tokens of the Holy Priesthood, with their names, and signs, and penalties, which you will receive in the temple this day. They are most sacred, and are guarded by solemn covenants and obligations of secrecy to the effect that made in the presence of God, Angels and these witnesses to hold them sacred and under no condition, even at the peril of your life, will you ever divulge them, except at a certain place in the temple that will be shown you hereafter. The representation of the execution of the penalties indicates different ways in which life may be taken.

DJ, the Mormon Church tells its people (as it told me, and undoubtedly as you were also told) that the temple ceremony is done exactly as it was revealed to Joseph Smith, and that it has never been changed. I know that this is what I was told, as a Mormon. I was also told that it had been done this exact same way going back to Old Testament times. But here we see that it has been changed many times since Joseph Smith first revealed it to his people.

DJ, the fact that you have never been personally exposed to this form of the ceremony does NOT make ME, and many others like me, who also went through it, liars. Ask your own older priesthood leaders. Ask THEM, DJ. But good luck getting a straight answer: they will either lie to your face, or they will give you a cop out answer like "Is the answer to that question relevant to your salvation, DJ?" You BET it's relevant! NOTHING could be MORE relevant, DJ.

If you have the courage to learn the truth, then this video shows part of the temple ceremony exactly as it was performed prior to 1990, or during the period when I was a temple going Mormon: http://youtu.be/qKG5kMnZZcM

But there is the old expression: A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. If you are only interested in building a hedge around your religion, and lack the personal courage to make an honest investigation of these things for yourself, then it is unlikely that you will come to the truth.

The truth is this, DJ. Mormonism is NOT God's 'true church'. God's true church does NOT consist of a denomination or religious order. His church consists of all those who have trusted Jesus Christ ALONE to save them (yes, DJ - SAVE) from their sins. Instead of uncritically swallowing what your church leaders tell you, you ought to be like the Bereans, who would not even take Paul the apostle at his word, until they had FIRST searched the scriptures to see if what he told them was true. And what did Paul do about it? I'll tell you what he did, DJ; he commended them for it!

DJ, I KNOW what my own experiences in the temple were like. I DON'T lie about it. I have no reason to lie about it. It is your own priesthood leaders who are lying to you, if and when they tell you that what I said is not true. Or perhaps it is you who are lying to yourself, because you are afraid of having what you believe in challenged. I don't you your heart; only you do. I can only tell you what I DO know.

This link is to a video where I was speaking at a local church several weeks ago: http://youtu.be/DpPsVjmL7cg You can go ahead and tell me that it is against your better judgment to watch it, all you want, but the facts remain the facts. Have the courage to watch my video. It is ME talking to YOU, DJ, man to man. I bear you no I'll will; I would have you come to the light of Christ's true gospel, and know His salvation.

DJ, you can't fool me, because I've been where you are. I KNOW that you don't have any true peace in your religion. You know it as well as I do, that you are afraid to die, because you don't KNOW that you'll go to your Mormon heaven, because you've never lived a good enough life. Your religion teaches "We are saved by grace, after all we can do!" And DJ, you know as well as I do, that you have NOT done 'all you can do'. And when you die, you STILL will not have done 'all you can do'. WE BOTH KNOW IT.

And for that matter, aside from Christ Himself, NO ONE has EVER done ALL he could do. And we BOTH KNOW THAT ALSO.

Christ Himself taught that salvation is by grace ALONE, through faith ALONE, in Christ ALONE.

Read your Bible, DJ. Really read it. STUDY IT.

Galatians 5:4 tells you very plainly that if you are trusting in anything other than Christ's grace to save you, that you have FALLEN from GRACE.

Salvation is not an act of any work that you can do, DJ. It never has been, and it never will be. Christ Himself did ALL the work that CAN be done to save men from their sins. There's NOTHING that you can add to what HE has done. NOTHING.

Read John 17. Read the entire chapter, where Christ prayed to the Father for those whom the Father has given Him. He makes it very plain that He will not lose anyone whom the Father has given Him.

But in Mormonism, you have no such hope, and you KNOW it. The problem is that you do not know the ONE Who is the very reason for hope.

The day will come, DJ, when you learn that Mormonism is not true; mark my words. I can only hope and pray that the day comes while you are yet alive and draw breath. For if you were to die today, you would die outside of the free (yes, FREE) grace of Jesus Christ, and would be eternally separated from Him. I certainly do not wish this for you. I would see you won to Christ, and to know you as my own brother, rather than as an enemy of the cross. That is why I write what I write.

I'm going to point out a few things now, that you won't like. You will no doubt want to call me a liar. That's your prerogative. But if you do so without FIRST making an investigation to learn if what I say is true, then you are being a fool. Please don't be a fool. What I am about to show you is ALL from your own church's sources. So if you don't like what I say, don't shoot me; I'm just the messenger.

Just a brief comparison between the 'Jesus' that you believe in, and the one Whom I believe in:

Your 'Jesus' is the brother of Lucifer, and is a created being, who was merely one of countless billions upon billions of 'saviors' of other worlds. He was procreated by the act of sexual intercourse between Elohim (whom your own religion's founders taught officially and adamantly that he was also Adam, the father of the human race) and Mary, the mother of Jesus.

The true Jesus Christ of history - the One Whom I worship as my Savior, IS GOD, from eternity past. He CREATED Lucifer, as one of His angels. His physical body was concieved by the power of the Holy Spirit, as told in the Bible, and not by an act of divine incest, as is taught by Mormonism. Furthermore, the Bible makes it plain that Mary was a VIRGIN until AFTER she gave birth to Jesus; yet, your own religious leaders MOCK those who believe what the Bible says!

Joseph Smith taught that there were people living on the MOON, DJ! He taught that they dressed like quakers, and generally lived to about a thousand years. Strangely, the astronauts never discovered them.

The gold plates, from which Joseph Smith never existed, and he never used plates to 'translate' the Book of Mormon anyway!

Consider this: had the plates existed (they didn't), as a 14 year old boy, he NEVER would have been able to lift them out of the place in the ground where they were buried, let alone carry them three miles back to his home in New York. I trust that this is something that you have never considered. Had the plates actually existed, they would have weighed at least 200 lbs (gold weighs 1204 lbs per cubic foot, just so you know). Even if he had managed to get them out of the hole in the ground, he never would have picked them up. Most adult men couldn't manage it, let alone a boy! Come on, DJ - really!

I have a 100 lb block of steel, that I like to bring with me when I speak at churches about Mormonism. You are welcome to see how well you would do picking it up and carrying it for three miles. I don't care if you are a weight lifter, you probably won't manage it; and it's only HALF of what Joe's plates would have weighed! And if, by chance, you ARE a weight lifter, DJ, then you only emphasize for me just how ridiculous the notion is that Joseph Smith could have done it as a boy!

It is only because not enough people have yet pointed out how impossible it would have been forJoseph Smith to carry the plates home, that the Mormon Church has not yet concocted a story about Moroni helping him do it.

DJ, your own relgion teaches that the priesthood that you hold is also held by SATAN! Come ON man! How can you hold to such a tenet? Satan is the enemy of God, and the enemy of TRUTH! He seeks nothing buy your own destruction!

Jesus Christ is my High Priest. Since Christ ascended into heaven, HE is the priest for everyone who truly believes in him. The priesthoods of Mormonism are not only not needed, but they are not real. They go against EVERYTHING that God has revealed to us in scripture.

Did you know that your own religion did not permit black people to hold the priesthood before 1978? Did you know that Brigham Young decreed that the penalty for a white person who marries a black person is 'dead on the spot'? Did you know that he taught, IN HIS OFFICIAL CAPACITY AS A MORMON PROPHET, and not as mere 'opinion' as so many of your lying priesthood leaders try to white wash it, that is 'will ALWAYS be so!'

Look at your own religion's founder, Joseph Smith, DJ:

I'm going to save myself a bit of typing by pasting here what I have already written before, as part of a manuscript for my video Mormonism: What is it?

On Sunday, May 26, 1844, Joseph Smith publicly said the following words in an address to dissenters in Nauvoo, Illinois:

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. “

“I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

He went on to say:

“When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." ( ‘History of the Church, in Volume 5 pages 408 and 409.)

With this statement, Smith also gives away the fact the he is NOT a follower of Jesus Christ, for he compares Jesus and His followers with Smith and his own followers, even to the point of speaking as if he considered himself superior to Christ!

Joseph Smith – a humble servant of God? I don’t think so, DJ!

How about some of the false translations that Joseph Smith authored? Let's have a quick look at a few of them.

We'll start with the Book of Mormon, the book from which Mormonism gets its nickname.

Joseph Smith claimed that the Book of Mormon was the truest of all books on Earth, and that it 'contains the fullness of the gospel'. Let's look at the account of how this fictitious book came about. Remember, the gold plates from which Mormonism claims the Book of Mormon was translated never actually existed! When we examine the occult method by which Smith claimed to 'translate' the book, we can see that the plates were not even needed!

Official Mormon pictures of Joseph Smith typically show him sitting at a desk, with the gold plates sitting in front of him, while he reads the translation to a scribe, who then writes down the English translation on paper.

But did you know that that is not how it really happened at all?

Joseph Smith would actually put his occult peep stone into a hat, and then would put the hat over his face, so as to block out all light! And the Comprehensive History of the Church, which is a Mormon publication, gives us the following details of exactly how the 'translation' happened:

"By aid of the Seer Stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say 'written;' and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another appear in its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used" (CHC 1:29).

The ORIGINAL 1830 Edition Of The Book Of Mormon Was Declared “Perfect” By Mormonism’s ‘God’.

According to Joseph Smith, God Himself said, ‘These plates have been revealed by the POWER OF GOD, and they have been translated by the power of God. The translation of them which you have seen is correct, and I command you to bear record of what you now see and hear.’” (History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Vol. 1, pp. 54-55)

This quote is especially telling, when we consider that there have been OVER 3000 changes made to the Book of Mormon. Most Mormons are not aware of this fact, but are taught instead that the Book of Mormon is the most perfect of all books in the world.

Who's the 'liar' now, DJ?

And the Mormon religion has the gall to say, in their eight article of faith: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly!"  while regarding the Book of Mormon, they say in the very same article, "We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God," without making any similar caveat about it being 'correctly translated'!

Absolute rubbish!

And then there are the Kinderhook Plates!

Some of Smith’s contemporaries set about to test him to see if he was really a true prophet. The men who made the plates knew that if Smith was a false prophet, he would try to translate the plates; He did attempt to translate them, thus proving that he was not a prophet of God.

According to the History of the Church, Volume 5, page 372, Joseph Smith actually had the audacity to claim that he had translated a portion of the plates. In Smith’s own words, he said:

“I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of Heaven and Earth.”

That is an amazing ‘translation’ when you consider that the plates were actually a complete fabrication.  Joseph Smith had no gift or power to translate anything. He was a con artist, and here he was caught red handed!

Again - who is lying, DJ? This is from your own church's source documents. What are you going to do about it, just shrug your shoulders and pretend that it doesn't matter to you? If you do that, then don't write to me and call ME a liar, DJ. That would be hypocritical.

For decades and decades, the Mormon Church went on and on, claiming that it would only be a matter of time until archeology would finally unearth all of the abundant evidence that would prove the Book of Mormon to be true. But in all the years since Mormonism was founded, do you know how much evidence has been found that supports the Book of Mormon, DJ? Do you? I'll tell you how much has been found - NONE, because t here ISN'T ANY!

This is quite the opposite of biblical archeology, where you can hardly put a shovel into the ground in and around Israel without digging up yet more evidence that verifies that every word in the Bible is true!

It used to be that your leaders told Mormons to believe Mormonism because of the evidence, which they were confident would one day be unearthed. NOW they tell you to believe in spite of the evidence against it, as an act of blind faith! This is ludicrous, DJ! We Christians believe the Bible BECAUSE OF THE EVIDENCE. We have confidence, because God's word is vindicated, time and time again. This is just the opposite of what happens with Mormonism. And you KNOW it. You just don't want to admit it to me.

I'll stop here, as I don't want to beat a dead horse. Either you will be persuaded by the evidence, or you will choose to ignore it; that is something that is beyond my control. The evidence is before you. Choose today what you will do with it.

All I can do is commit you to God, and ask Him to open your eyes to His truth. And that is what I will do.

DJ, I have a copy of the book Major Problems of Mormonism. I'm willing to lend you my copy, if you think that you are able to refute it. And by refute, I do NOT mean 'make excuses and try to side step around the problems'. Let's see how well YOU do, since you have called ME a liar. I made an honest attempt, AS A MORMON, to refute the book. I was entirely unable to do so, because I am honest. I am one of those people who, when I realize that I have been deceived, has to admit it to myself. I was not willing to lie to myself and pretend to believe that the Mormon religion is true; not after I learned that it is NOT true. I hope that you are also like that. A true man of God will NOT lie to himself and pretend that something is true, when he has learned that it is a lie, even if everyone on the planet should call him a liar to his own face.

At the end of all this, DJ, there is one thing that I want to make VERY clear. If, after all of this, you determine that Mormonism is not true, don't make the mistake (as so many who come out of cults do) of becoming an atheist. Just because a religion (in your case, Mormonism) is not true, does NOT mean that Christ is not true. And it does not mean that the Bible is not true. Unlike the cults, the case for Christ is ROCK SOLID, and can stand up to any scrutiny. The Bible says, 'Let Christ be true, and every man a liar', and so it is. God CANNOT lie.

There is no salvation outside of the shed blood of Jesus Christ, DJ. And unless and until you trust Him, and Him ALONE to save you, you will not have any assurance of eternal life. Indeed, as you are right now, you do not even HAVE eternal life. But you already KNOW that, DON'T you, DJ? But you CAN have it, if only you will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and trust HIM to save you! And this is my prayer for you.

Your email indicates (or seems to indicate) that you live in the greater Vancouver area. If that is so, then perhaps you'd care to meet with me, one on one, and we can make a more thorough examination of God's word (the Bible), and the evidences for the TRUE gospel of Jesus Christ. I would LOVE to see you accept Him as your Savior. NOTHING could make me happier!

Should you desire to meet and dialogue with me, let me know, and I'll try to be available. Typically, I can only meet on weekends. And if you are not comfortable with that, well - you already have my email address. I'll be here if you have any questions, comments, or if you just want to vent at me about 'anti-Mormons'. I wish you only the best, and I want you to know that. I will be praying for you.

Cordially,

Your Ex Mo Bro,

Al Roy

Hi Al,

 

I’ve come back to the church after years of inactivity, and while there are many things about the church that I still do not understand, I have still been able to listen to my gut, the comforter, the Holy Ghost. I have received numerous promptings from the spirit over the years of my life, and they have never led me astray.

 

Never.

 

these promptings have kept me healthy, saved me from embarrassment, given me insight to the thoughts and minds of others, and in some instances, literally saved my life. I have come to know that the spirit is never wrong, and I have learned to trust it and learn from it.

 

I do not follow this church blindly. I took a step away from it and physically felt myself walking away from the presence of the Lord and His church. I spent years in darkness, but whenever I allowed my heart to ponder on the things I learned as I grew up, I felt that same familiar spark inside.

 

For the last few years I have felt as though I was in darkness. I left the radius of His influence and saw the difference first hand. Now that I’ve returned, I can feel the influence of the spirit again. I can ACTUALLY FEEL it! It is just as tangible a feeling as if I were to run my hand under warm water. It is good, and comforting, and in all the many churches and places of worship I’ve been to (and I have been to many, mind you) I have only found that in one place consistently: the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

Now, as I read the words you’ve written and compare your “truth” to what I have learned and seen and felt, I witnessed the Spriit withdraw from me completely, and was again left in darkness. I wanted to share an experience with you, but as I sit here I’m prompted not to. This experience has become a sacred thing to me and I have no desire to share it so that you might twist it around. I will instead share with you another.

 

While serving as a missionary, I was forced to make my own meals, and because of it’s ease in preparing, pasta was often the meal of the day.  To test how cooked the noodles were, I would grab one or two of them and throw them at the ceiling. If they stuck, I knew they were cooked and ready. I do the same thing now with principles of the church. I have tested them. I take one or two of them at a time, and throw them on the wall, and in every case, they have stuck. They are good.

 

You shared some wonderful scriptures with me, and I would like to take this opportunity to share some with you.

 

“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”

Timothy 1:7

 

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,”

Galatians 5

 

In a roundabout way, you have answered my question. “Why do you feel compelled to lie?” I feel that you are doing so because you no longer work for the same master that you once did. You are compelled to lie, because that is what he does. He is the father of deception, and those are his tools.

 

Again, as I read your words, the spirit withdrew from me and I am left with nothing but fear, confusion, and darkness. I feel none of the fruits of the spirit, and that alone is my witness. I have tested your words and I see them for what they are: a snare to drag me down into darkness. You may very likely call me a fool, or say that I really have no desire to know the real truth. Heck, I AM a fool, and maybe even very naïve, but even a baby who knows nothing still spits out rotten fruit when it is given to him.

 

Is this Christ’s true and only church on the face of the earth? Honestly, I don’t know that. I do, however, believe it is. I believe that it is because my heart tells me so. I am comforted by it. It brings me peace and warmth. It is good fruit!

 

As the sun hangs in the sky, there are those who are blind who can not see it to confirm it’s existence. And there are those who are dumb, who can’t hope to effectively describe it. Despite their frailties and weaknesses, they feel it’s influence all the same. I will not look upon the sun and deny its existence even as it bathes me in it’s warmth. There is a name and a place for those who do that, and as foolish as I am, I do not intend to be one of them.

 

If you make this choice to join them, it is your own, but I WILL NOT be your company.

 

I don’t know you, but perhaps in the life before I did. From one literal child of God to another, from one brother to another, I urge you to repent and come back to the fold. There is still time. Let us both get back on the path again and make it home safely. You should know that I do not mean to condescend, it is not the intent of my heart. I accept that there is nothing I can do that will take me to heaven, and in that way, I am no closer to heaven than you are. We both know that faith without works is dead, and that we need that faith to return to Him. Works are not the vehicle that take us home, but they are the fuel.

 

Let’s go home.

 

DJ

 

My final reply to DJ